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Minutes of 7/13/2016

July 22nd, 2016

Carroll Board of Selectmen
Meeting Minutes
July 13, 2016


“These minutes of the Town of Carroll Select Board have been recorded by its Secretary. Though believed to be accurate and correct they are subject to additions, deletions and corrections by the Select Board at its next meeting when the Board votes its final approval of the minutes. They are being made available at this time to conform to the requirements of New Hampshire RSA 91-A:2.”

Minutes recorded by Maryclare H. Quigley, Secretary

Board members present: Paul Bussiere, David Scalley, Brian Mycko.

The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m.by Chairman Bussiere.

Members of the public present: Richard Krapf, Bonnie Moroney, Jeremy Oleson, Lori Hogan, Greg Hogan, Tammy Dubreuil, Kelly Trammell, Michael Hogan, Dianne Hogan

Pledge of Allegiance

Selectman Scalley recused himself from the Board.

Chairman Bussiere explained the meeting was for discussion of Monday night. He stated he and Selectman Mycko had voted to approve that the Town replace the water pipe across Route 3 South to increase water pressure/flow to accommodate a sprinkler system at the property where Dave Scalley is putting a new restaurant. He said we will hear new evidence, different points of view and arguments why the Town should or should not do this and explained the vote taken Monday may be vacated or amended. He went on to say that tonight’s decision may be appealed at the ZBA as long as it takes place within thirty days – calendar days, not work days, of this meeting.

Chairman Bussiere spoke of the Town of Carroll Water Works policy and said through no one’s fault, there are a number of inconsistencies which need to be addressed. He said their job tonight is to interpret the policy to the best of their ability as fairly as possible for the Town, the applicant and those who pay the water.

The Chairman said the Selectmen asked the Town to replace the pipe to improve the diameter of the pipe across Route 3 to the curb stop on the other side of the road. He said Greg had asked to table this at the meeting so he would have time to research it. Chairman Bussiere apologized to Greg for not taking him seriously and listening to his request and to the applicant that he has to go through this again. However, he felt it was serious enough to warrant tonight’s meeting.

Greg Hogan, Public Works Supervisor, said he tried to gather information by speaking with Granite State Rural Water, along with various towns, including Littleton. Because fire suppressant is new to town, he is inclined to agree with Littleton’s policy. For liability reasons, they have a line dedicated to water for the fire suppressant system, which the owner is responsible for, and the Town does not charge for any water on that line. Thus, if there is any issue with the line or if it should fail, there is no liability with the Town. Selectman Mycko confirmed this was the line from the water main to the building, and asked about any shutoffs. Greg said the Town does one outside the building for maintenance purposes, but that is the only thing. Discussion was interspersed with the size of the line being 4 inches or 2 inches for a dedicated line.

Chairman Bussiere asked Mr. Scalley if he went through the Planning Board with his project, to which he answered he did. The Chairman asked if the plans or drawings had any requirement for a larger line to come in to which Mr. Scalley said no. The Chairman then asked when the plans were given to the Town and Mr. Scalley was unsure but thought two or three months ago. Jeremy Oleson, Fire Chief, said he did not have them until around June 13. It was noted they had spoken on the phone.

The Chairman read excerpts from the Water Policy and said it has certain size pipe. He explained he is trying to get a chronology. Chairman Bussiere asked if the sprinkler were not required if the pipe size would be sufficient and Mr. Hogan replied that it is as far as he knows. The Chairman continued saying there are approved plans and a requirement for a sprinkler system so there needs to be a new, larger line. The Chairman read further from the Policy and Greg agreed that in his opinion it does not address the issue.

Reverting to discussion of size of pipe required, Mr. Scalley said the minimum is 2 inches for each domestic and fire suppressant. He felt it was easier just to install a 4 inch line. Mr. Hogan said he was under the impression that the line had to be 4 inches just for fire and it was reiterated that 4 inch pipe will feed both.

The Chairman read more of the Policy regarding maintenance and replacement in the street right-of-way – this would the responsibility of the Carroll Water Works. He said it is rather difficult to understand the way it is written. Selectman Mycko said he believes the lines under the road would be the town. Discussion continued regarding responsibility of the line. Regarding a line that goes under the road, the Road Agent, Greg Hogan, said the way to handle that is to bore and he believes it is the customer’s responsibility. Selectman Mycko said the Town’s responsibility ends at the first curb stop. Chairman Bussiere said if there is a leak on Route 3, the customer could pay upwards of $20,000 to $30,000 to bore under the road. He asked if we had ever had anything like this before. Greg said there had been an issue on Route 3 with a bad leak and the State said the Town would be responsible for the road if it got damaged by the leak. However, he reiterated that this was an emergency and the cost for the Town would have been extremely high had it gotten to that point. There was more discussion regarding where ownership begins as well as where curb stops are or should be located.

It was stated that the purpose of this meeting is to address the applicant, but that we should be cautious as if we are buying this line under the road, we could be buying everyone’s lines under the roads. This should go to the lawyer to determine what may be in the best interest of the Town and let the cards “fall where they may.”

Chairman Bussiere reiterated the policy is very contradictory with conflicting definitions in numerous areas. Working on the Water Policy will be a priority this year.

Discussion continued about fire suppression lines and who may or may not be allowed to touch them or work on them. It was also stated that there is no way anyone can know what size pipes are in the ground and without records, this should not fall back on anyone. It was also stated the applicant is responsible for the flow that comes in and this should be brought up by someone during the planning stages. An example given was if electric power coming in isn’t enough, the company comes in and does an upgrade, and it is known at the beginning of the project.

It was asked why this issue didn’t get addressed earlier as someone should have known all along that it needed a sprinkler system. The applicant said it was only in June that they could test the pressure. He then asked if they need to put the system in. Chief Oleson said it is a State law, not the Town – whether or not the Town has ever adopted it, that a new building must have a sprinkler. The Chief went on to say it is up to the applicant and depends on what it is, whether retail, restaurant, apartments, etc. He said the sprinkler system is not meant to put out the fire, but to allow time for people to get out and to slow it down until the fire department gets there.
It was stated that they thought it was required and the Chief said it is up in the apartments, but not necessarily downstairs because it has a separate occupancy and needs other barriers for timing.

It was asked what the cost would be if the Town decided tonight to cover the cost of the new line. Greg said under the road, sleeved and tapped to expand off property, would be approximately $12,000. He explained that he was told it would require a 4 inch line just for the fire suppression, but learned tonight that the 2 inch line would be okay. It was also asked where the money will come from and the Chairman said he didn’t know and wasn’t sure if it would be fair for just those who pay for water to bear the burden of the cost.

Mr. Scalley said he understands as the policy is now, the Town will take care of repair if the pipe breaks, but that the Road Agent wants the customer to pay otherwise. He argued that there is a lot of traffic, including big and heavy trucks and equipment that go on the road as well as freezing and heaving that could cause the pipe to break and questioned that it would still be the customer’s responsibility.

It was reiterated that the Policy needs to be sent to the attorney. Mr. Scalley agreed that it needs to be taken care of and said that he had spoken of issues with it a year ago. However, change the policy tomorrow, but it’s written as it is today and he is asking the town to help him move his project forward.

Chairman Bussiere said the Policy will go to the attorney after the board has a chance to review and get rid of the conflicts. He asked that the Water Policy be on the Selectmen’s agenda in the future. Lori Hogan said Dave Scalley is a Selectman and shouldn’t be perceived as getting special treatment so they must be very careful to protect him as well as the Town. She urged that it be sent to the attorney. Chairman Bussiere reiterated that however it goes tonight they may appeal as may be necessary. Selectman Mycko said he believes regardless of the decision that it should go to the attorney.

Kelly Trammell said she thought this meeting was about the decision and vote taken Monday night. She reminded about the vote to pay the invoice for the pressure test and that it should not be paid as the Policy is very clear about this.

At this point, Chairman Bussiere said he would not take any more public input. He said they could vacate or modify the vote taken previously and he would recommend they vacate so they can start with a new slate. Therefore, Chairman Bussiere made a Motion to: vacate the vote on Monday for the project and paying the invoice of $750 for the pressure test. Selectman Mycko seconded and the Motion passed.

Chairman Bussiere started with the invoice and read the Policy regarding this. He said he feels the Town should not pay it. Mr. Scalley said the company needed the flow and pressure to design the system and the Town did not have it. It was stated years ago there was a big pressure issue and all over town water tanks, valves, etc. blew and it was not the Town’s responsibility. After further discussion, the Chairman said he believes the Policy covers this and it says this is the customer’s responsibility.

Debate continued about the lines and the Chairman questioned why they changed minds as a sprinkler needs a 2 inch line and it’s already there. The flow rate wouldn’t change and it is his opinion that it is the developer’s cost. He also said there is a problem with the way it is written and if it is in the right-of-way, it’s the Town’s responsibility. Because of the various conflicting statements, etc., Chairman Bussiere said he believes strict enforcement would be an injustice and feels as it is written, they can reach an agreement. However, it would be for this case only and would not be setting a precedent. He believes there should be a special exception under the rules. He noted again that a 4 inch line is not needed and after the decision they should send it to the attorney. Chairman Bussiere said he would like to see a 50/50 split of the cost.

It was asked to clarify what this would be. It was stated they would be tapping a new line from the main under Route 3 to the curb stop on the property side where the boring company comes out. Customer pays tap connection device and the shut off valve. Greg said the physical connection (tap) will be done by the company not the Town to minimize liability to the Town. (Greg will contact the company who does the tap.) After further discussion, Chairman Bussiere made the Motion that: The applicant and the Town will split the cost of the installation, horizontal boring and material of the new 2 inch line. Selectman Mycko seconded. Discussion called. Mr. Scalley said they didn’t establish that the Town owns the line in the right-of-way. Chairman Bussiere agreed but said elsewhere it says differently. They are trying to be fair to the Town and the applicant. Chairman Bussiere called for the vote: 2 yeas, 0 nays. The Motion was approved.

Chairman Bussiere stated if the applicant wants a 4 inch line any cost above and beyond the 2 inch line is completely on the applicant. Selectman Mycko disagreed with giving the option of choice. He said too many conflicting statements of who owns under the road. It was stated they need 4 inch line for pressure and Greg said he feels the difference in cost under the road between the 2 inch and 4 inch line is not significant. Therefore, Chairman Bussiere Made a Motion to: Vacate the vote and modify the Motion to a Sleeved, 4 inch line dedicated to fire suppression. Selectman Mycko seconded and the Motion was approved 2 yeas, 0 nays. The Chairman noted the existing 2 inch line for potable water is the customer’s full responsibility.

Discussion resumed about the invoice for $750 for testing the pressure. Selectman Mycko made a Motion to: split the invoice at 50/50. Chairman Bussiere seconded the Motion for discussion.
He proceeded to say it is his opinion that the Town is not responsible for flow or pressure and doesn’t feel the Town should pay. Chief Oleson said ISO did flow rates in various parts of town a number of years ago, so there is at least a bit of data though it is limited. Chairman Bussiere called for the vote and with that being 0 yeas, 2 nays, the Motion failed.

Mr. Scalley thanked the Board for taking the time to have this meeting and to discuss this issue with him.

Kelly Trammell asked who would address any permits that may be required by the State. Greg Hogan said he had already spoken with DOT and DES and believes there will not be any permits needed.

Selectman Scalley rejoined the Board.

As there was no further business, Selectman Mycko made a Motion to adjourn the meeting and Chairman Bussiere seconded. The Motion passed. Chairman Bussiere declared the meeting ended at 9:26 p.m.