Planning Board Minutes

PB Minutes of 1.9.25

January 9th, 2025

Town of Carroll Planning Board
Meeting Minutes
January 9, 2025
5:00 PM
“These minutes of the Town of Carroll Planning Board have been recorded by its secretary. Though believed to be accurate and correct, they are subject to additions, deletions, and corrections by the Planning Board at its next meeting when the Board votes its final approval of the minutes. They are being made available at this time to conform to the requirements of New Hampshire RSA 91-A:2.”
Planning Board Members Present: Don Jones, Vice Chair Austin Alvarez, Chair Alex Foti, Jules Marquis, Rena Vecchio, Paula Murphy
Public Present: Andy Smith, Michael LePage, Gardner Kellogg, Chris & Judy Pappas, Geri Garneau, Joan Nicosia, Tom Parks, Attorney Andy Sullivan, Evan Karpf, Tavis Austin, Cathy Conway, Kevin Leonard
Minutes Taken By: Steffanie Apostle
Item #1: Meeting was called to order at 5:00pm
Item #2: Pledge of Allegiance
Item #3: Attendance / Quorum
• Attendance was taken, Quorum was met
• There were (2) Selectboard members present in the audience. They were Bonnie Moroney & Bryan Mycko
Item #4: Approval of Minutes – December 5, 2024
Jules Marquis made a motion to approve the meeting minutes and Rena Vecchio seconded the motion. 0 – Opposed / 0 – Abstained motion was passed and minutes were approved
Item #5: Keegan & Sade LaBonte – Lot Line Adjustment

Gardner Kellogg presented a Site Plan to the Planning Board for a lot line adjustment for Keegan & Sade LaBonte. Keegan and Sade LaBonte are looking to change the lot lines between tax map parcels 211-028-000-009 & 211-029-000-010 to make a possible building site by the road

Motion was made by Jules Marquis to accept the application as complete and Don Jones seconded the motion. 0 – Opposed / 0 – Abstained motion was passed and application was accepted as complete.
Alex Foti reviewed the application and because it was a lot line adjustment there would be a lot of N/A on the application
Alex Foti asked the Board if they had any questions, comments, or concerns and they did not before it was opened to the Public Hearing
Alex Foti opened the public hearing
There were no comments, question or concerns from the audience but there was a letter sent in by Nathalie Descheneaux which was read out load by Alex Foti
(Letter)
We understand our neighbors on Abel Lane are looking to change the boundary lines between their two lots. We are not opposed to their proposal and are glad they will be able to develop a home site. We would like to voice our concerns about the future development of the properties as it relates to wetlands. The south west portion of our property is downstream of the wetlands and has a small access point through a low-lying trail. The wetlands funnel underneath that trail through a small culvert. We worry about future change to the wetlands as it would affect our low-lying land and could cause flooding around the trail and limit access to that area. Please see attached pictures.
Steffanie Apostle said she had spoken to Nathalie Descheneaux on the phone and her main concern was that they were going to try to fill in the wetlands to build a house and that would flood their property more than it already floods.
The Planning Board compared the drawings submitted to the board with Gardner Kellogg’s drawings so they could see where the property was located
Gardner Kellogg said the LaBonte’s did not plan to fill in the wetlands. They were looking to build a house in the future up by the road as that was the only buildable spot.
Alex Foti said that would be a challenge to do because there are laws against it and they would need to work with the state.
Alex Foti asked the public if there were any concerns or questions and there were not.
Alex Foti asked the Board if they had any concerns or questions and there were not
Alex Foti asked if anyone on the board wanted to make a motion to approve the application
Rena Vecchio made a motion to approve the application and Jules Marquis seconded the motion. 0 – Opposed / 0 – Abstained motion was passed and application was approved.
Item #6: Echo Lake – Sub-Division Application (Continuation from Consult on 12/5/2024)
Tavis Austin greeted the Board with a Happy New Year. He explained they were looking to convert the (2) subdivisions previously approved into a condominium form of ownership. Tavis Austin said everything remains the same. There is a slight revision to the packet but before Tavis Austin could continue Alex Foti explained we had to start off by accepting the application first.
Alex Foti said the first step is to accept the application itself and go through what is or is not provided and provide justification for items not provided.
Alex Foti asked Tavis Austin if there was a N/A for the flood elevation line because it is not in a flood zone
Tavis Austin said it was not included in the condo plan because it was previously approved
Alex Foti asked Tavis Austin why he didn’t think it needed to be included in this application
Tavis Austin said in his opinion, flood elevation has nothing to do with the form of ownership
Alex Foti told Tavis Austin this is a new application, not just about the change of ownership but a completely new application
Tavis Austin said what the Town had asked for was a condo plat and site plan. The site plan is what includes the flood elevation
Alex Foti asked him why he marked it a N/A on the application if it was included
Tavis Austin said that was because he didn’t have it on the condo plat
Joan Nicosia asked for some clarification. Joan Nicosia was at the last meeting in December and she was under the impression that there was going to be removal of lot lines
Alex Foti told Joan Nicosia we would get to that a little later
Joan Nicosia said for the approval of the application the Town needs to know what it falls under. The Town doesn’t know if the application is complete unless they know what part of the ordinance it falls under
Alex Foti said it was a sub-division and site plan
Joan Nicosia said this falls under a different type of development with different requirements
Jules Marquis said to Joan Nicosia we will be getting into that
Alex Foti said to Joan Nicosia that is step 2. Right now, we are just checking the paperwork is here and complete
Alex Foti reviewed the application and asked about page 3 having a N/A where it asks for architectural drawings showing the shape, size, height, and other exterior details of proposed structures or expansion of buildings
Tavis Austin said it had a N/A because that was part of the original approval
Alex Foti reminded Tavis Austin again that this was a new application
Tavis Austin said everything the Town received prior and acted on is included in the package
Alex Foti said it should not have a N/A; it should be marked with an X if it is included
Rena Vecchio said she didn’t see anything in package with architectural drawings or anything they marked with a N/A
Alex Foti told Tavis Austin they need to include all of that into the new application. Also marked off as N/A was the Location, size, and landscaping and that should also be included in the package
Tavis Austin said the Board agreed that everything was completed and acted on everything
Alex Foti told Tavis that they were here for a new application, separate from their previous application
Tavis Austin said he understood what Alex Foti was saying but they were only re-subdividing this in the form of ownership. Everything that was approved and the conditions that went with it were in the application
Alex Foti said to Tavis Austin that in order to have a complete application they still need all the elements or it is not a complete application. Alex Foti said he understood that they had already looked at some of this stuff but in the scope of today’s meeting this is a new application they were bringing forward. The Board can’t just say because there was an old application with this data because at some point that prior application will probably be abandoned and what the Board needs to approve is today’s application not the prior one
Tavis Austin said to Alex Foti that is the Board were to say this additional information is required for the condo; the property owner may decide to just move forward with what was already approved
Alex Fold said if the property owner wants to move forward with this application it needs to be complete
Tavis Austin said that would have been helpful if that was addressed at the last meeting
Alex Foti said it is addressed in the Towns Ordinances. You need to have a complete application to come to the meeting
Tavis Austin said typically flood elevations are not required for a condo subdivision. If the board wants to go to that extent, they would pull it together
Alex Foti said it should be straight forward because they already have that information, they just need to include it. Alex Foti went back to the application where it lists out lighting plan, signs, locations/dimensions of loading spaces; there is none of that so it was correct to be N/A. Alex Foti read off the next item on the list; circulation plan of the interior of the lot for vehicular and pedestrian circulation, also showing means of access and egress, proposed changes to existing streets, sidewalk, and curbs, including any traffic control devices or signs necessary. Alex Foti said to Tavis Austin you guys have a stop sign this should not be a N/A. Alex Foti asked what their plan was for solid waste disposal and collection
Tavis Austin said that would be handled by and independent trash removal company
Alex Foti said the visual and noise reductions barriers is correct being N/A as there are none
Once Alex Foti was done reviewing the Site Plan Review application, he told Tavis Austin there were a few things on the application that are marked N/A but need to be included with the application
Cathy Conway who is from Horizon Engineering wanted to address a couple of those things. Cathy Conway believed Tavis Austin is looking at the condo plan that she believed is part of the application package from the previous plans submitted. The only thing not in the package is the elevated flood plan. Everything else, the streets, the names, all of that stuff is part of the submittal package. They have a couple buildings already up that they don’t have pictures for because they have the real thing. They can provide the pictures, but everything else is part of the package just not on the plan.
Rena Vecchio said that plan is what they want approved
Cathy Conway agreed but said if they put all of that on one plan you wouldn’t be able to read it. The site plan shows all of that detail regarding all of those items that go along with this plan. Like when they get a subdivision recorded it’s just the first page that gets recorded.
Tavis Austin said he wasn’t lost on the fact that this was a new application, but what their client is proposing is exactly what the board already approved; the building, the signs, the grading, all of that with the addition to be able to have condominiums. The pictures are not included but the application has everything that was already approved with the change of ownership
Alex Foti spoke to the Board and said essentially what we are talking about is, we would accept this application with the condition that the elements that are not included but were previously included in the prior application be added
Jules Marquis said in other words what you’re looking for is one book with everything in it
Alex Foti said yes because ultimately that becomes the accepted approved plan and we need to have all of that information. We can’t say it’s in a plan that now no longer exists
Jules Marquis said it would be their bible moving forward so everything has to be put in it
Rena Vecchio mentioned that she had not seen any letters from the Fire Chief or the Road Agent
Tavis Austin said go back to 9/30/20; Alex Foti made a motion with all the recommendations of their consultant outlined in the technical review that Tavis Austin has a copy of and can add to the application. The motion was seconded by Selectman Bonnie Moroney. The Fire Chief recommended to put no parking signs at the hammerheads. The recommendation also included 11/2/23 meeting which discussed how to make the above changes on the new plan that could be voted on in December. Cathy Conway had requested the Planning Board to please approve the revisions to Phase I with contingencies. Alex Foti had made the motion to approve the revisions to the Phase I application with conditions and no Certificate of Occupancy would be issued until the following conditions were met
• Winter slope stabilization which can be seeded in the Spring at an appropriate time
• Road Agent / Water Dept. signs off
• Any legal HOA documents to be reviewed by counsel prior to any sale
• The existing bond to stay in place until the winter slope stabilization is completed with grass in the Spring
• Slope easements to be added to the plan on lots #1, #2, & #7
5/2/24 Alex Foti made a motion to approve with the following conditions
• Kevin Leonard and Cathy Conway agree to the specifications of engineering
• Performance bond to be determined by Kevin Leonard and in place prior to construction
• Construction monitoring escrow created and funded prior to initializing the project
• Satisfactory review of legal documents by Town counsel
• All necessary state permits approved and reviewed by the Fire Chief
Alex Foti said he believed what Rena Vecchio was saying is that there is no consensus yet
Rena Vecchio said and if down the road if someone wants to play games with these condominiums and look into what has happened in this Town and we don’t have the proper documents for the file that says this is not duplexes its condominiums; that leaves us wide open for them and for the Town.
Alex Foti said we can do as we often do and make a condition that the Fire Chief and the Road Agent must sign off on the plan.
Rena Vecchio said there are 5 others on page 3; are they going to be conditions also
Alex Foti said those are to be included in the application
Rena Vecchio said we are up to 6 or 7 conditions, and she thinks that is a lot
Paula Murphy said that on page 4 it asks for copies of all the applicable state approvals and permits pending. If you refer to the utility section its saying DES approval information needs to be provided
Tavis Austin said he believed all of that was in progress and that Cathy Conway and Kevin Leonard are still working on all the original conditions.
Cathy Conway said they had AOT approval (Alteration of Terrain), DOT approval (Department of Transportation) and water approval from the Town/State. The only thing they have pending is the State subdivision approval which is only affected by this new subdivision to condominiums. All the other permits are in hand. DOT approval is based on traffic and numbers and that will stay the same.
Paula Murphy said when you applied for your septic approval there was a caveat for additional requirements if it was going to be converted to condominiums
Cathy Conway said they would need to resubmit the septic applications. They have some septic systems that have been installed and some that have been approved and not installed. They will need to be resubmitted for condominiums
Alex Foti said they still needed to accept the application as complete so we can move to the public hearing. The question is do we consider the application substantially complete because the data was provided in advance, and we can roll it into the discussion and the final approval; or is the Board not comfortable with that until we have a package that contains everything
Rena Vecchio said she was nor comfortable and wants to see everything that is supposed to be there. Rena Vecchio feels having 5,6,7 conditions is too much; 1,2 or even 3 is fine but this is what we require from everyone else
Alex Foti said he could see the element of we have that information; its an N/A where it should be an X. It will need to be provided in the final package
Rena Vecchio said it needs to state that it’s the Twin Peaks now and not Echo Lake. There is a lot that needs to be done and what about the fire pond
Cathy Conway said she just wanted to point out that as part of the package submitted the plan that includes the items checked as N/A with the exception of the architectural drawings are part of the package.
Alex Foti said that was some of the confusion because it’s checked as N/A and its included.
Jules Marquis asked them if they were going to bring the Board back a package with everything that should be in it with the N/A’s removed
Tavis Austin said yes, he would and if he could he would change them all to X’s right now
Jules Marquis made a motion to accept the application as complete with conditions that the items will be rolled into the new application. Don Jones Seconded the Motion. 5 members were in favor 1 member was opposed; application was accepted as completed and would move to the Public Hearing.
Alex Foti said there was a lot of back and forth and it was substantially similar or equivalent to the previous plan. There were a few things that changed that Alex Foti made sure Echo Lake aka Twin Peaks needed to understand.
1.) Lot lines and the ownership structure of the overall project
2.) The big elephant in the room that’s the fire pond and how that is being addressed
Joan Nicosia said that she was an abutter and had real concern. Joan Nicosia asked the Board what gave them permission to develop more than (1) primary building on (1) lot and what allows the Planning Board to remove lot lines in a subdivision that’s in Residential business?
Alex Foti said because it was a condominium
Joan Nicosia said a condominium was a managerial economic
Alex Foti said a condominium was a form of ownership
Joan Nicosia said we are eliminating lot lines; where does it say in the Zoning Ordinance that in the Residential area you can eliminate lot lines and put in several primary buildings
Alex Foti said it’s a condominium; you’re not removing lot lines
Joan Nicosia then asked where it said that condominiums could go in the Residential Zone
Tavis Austin look for the term single family home
Joan Nicosia said that if you look at Residential Business you must have lots that are at least 1 acre. Joan Nicosia asked them to explain to her how is a Residential Business you can eliminate lot lines and put several primary buildings on (1) lot. What Ordinance permits the Board to do that
Alex Foti said because we as the Town allow condominiums which is a form of ownership
Joan Nicosia said condominiums had nothing to do when you’re planning out a piece of property
Alex Foti said it absolutely did
Jules Marquis also said it did
Alex Foti then said we have dozens of condominiums in Town
Joan Nicosia said it was only because they were eliminating lot lines and it did not say in the Ordinance you can eliminate lot lines
Alex Foti said he believed Joan Nicosia was mixing a few different things up
Joan Nicosia said she didn’t think she was
Alex Foti said he thought she was and asked to move on as they had a short time for discussion and invited anyone to go online and read about condominium ownership
Joan Nicosia asked again about where it said they could eliminate lot lines
Alex Foti said they were not eliminating lot lines. It was (1) lot being turned into a condominium
Joan Nicosia said the primary buildings are not within lots
Alex Foti said they are part of a condominium; that’s how it works. Crawford Ridge, Mount Washington Place were examples of the same thing
Joan Nicosia said those were in the Overlay District
Attorney Andy Sullivan made an observation that there was no subdivision yet; it was still (1) lot. They were going for a Site Plan to utilize it as a condominium
Joan Nicosia said she felt it should be a PUD (Planned Unit Development)
Alex Foti said this was not a PUD
Joan Nicosia asked why not
Alex Foti said they had already discussed it with Legal and it was not a PUD it was a condominium development just like all the other condominium developments they had in Town. Alex Foti then moved the meeting along to the fire pond and asked how that was being addressed
Cathy Conway said she had thought this had already been addressed along with the locations of the dry hydrants, the volume of the fire pond, accessing the dry hydrant up off the road vs. in the driveway, the legal documents. They are going to make sure the pond is full. Cathy Conway was a little unclear what the remaining issues were
Alex Foti asked Kevin Leonard to explain
Kevin Leonard agreed with the stuff Cathy Conway was saying but he said the Fire Chief has been on record saying in writing that if the development was changing because when Phase I was approved, they didn’t know there was a water problem; that was discovered in Phase II. If the project is changing to a condominium the next structure to be built has to have the fire pond constructed and operating before construction can start
Cathy Conway said so it’s timing not the design they were talking about
Attorney Andy Sullivan said that it was in the works; each pond takes about 3-4 weeks
Kevin Leonard said the 2nd layer to the pond is that it exists in the Phase II design but not the road. Either they could change the Phases, move the pond, or come up with a different solution
Cathy Conway said the term phases may be the wrong legal term
Attorney Andy Sullivan said what they want to do is the first 9 buildings representing 18 units (Phase I) They were going to be submitting that to the AG (Attorney General). Each 2-unit parcel is a different Phase convertible; it’s converted as phases come online; it’s converted like the process of amending the condo with AG approval. They can convert groupings maybe 2 or 3 phases at a time.
Kevin Leonard said that was how they were going to convey them but it didn’t address the timing of the fire pond relative to the Chief’s concern that the next structure #4 needs a fire pond solution before it can start
Cathy Conway asked why. If they were allowing 9 buildings already without a fire pond, why did they need to put it in before building #4
Kevin Leonard said they didn’t know there was a fire supply problem before. That was discovered in Phase II and Phase I had been approved without that knowledge so fire hydrants were put it
Chief Jeff Duncan said the assumption when Phase I was approved was that the Town had proper water for Phase I; but we do not. Now that the problem has been identified we have the issue of not having the proper fire protection for all of the homes and buildings
Attorney Andy Sullivan asked what had changed and how was it approved
Alex Foti said at the time it got approved we didn’t know there was a problem
Chief Jeff Duncan said it was the assumption that the fire hydrants would protect your buildings in Phase I but it isn’t
Tavis Austin said he had an interesting question for the Town considering their legal ability to require a fire pond for something that is already approved, recorded, and under construction
Alex Foti said he could go ahead with those 9 buildings and not get approval for anything else
Tavis Austin said that were already approved but Phase II had not been recorded yet. Tavis Austin said the Board had no concern about requiring a fire pond before Phase II.
Alex Foti said Phase II had the fire ponds as part of it. The fire pond needs to meet Kevin Leonard’s specifications
Tavis Austin said let’s step back a little bit. If this application failed for the condominium is the Town going to take the position that the fire pond still must be in for the 4th building in Phase I and based upon what
Alex Foti said that was outside his jurisdiction; he did not know water flow
Andy Smith said he understood the position and they have knowledge now they didn’t at the time but there was an approved subdivision for all these buildings and if tonight’s application fails, they were going to build the rest of the buildings without the fire pond
Alex Foti said that wasn’t their call. With the data they have today they know there is not enough water to deal with a problem so if they want to move forward with the application, they need to address the issue of where the water is coming from for fire suppression
Andy Smith said what he understood them as saying was they have the information as the Town that they approved the subdivision of 9 lots with (2) units in each one. All they want to do is try to improve the project. It’s been driving the Town crazy and the developers crazy and all they want to do is improve it and have a good project. Andy Smith thinks what this project has changed will make it much better for the Town. To suddenly say you need to change a fire pond for the exact same amount of square footage in buildings that were already approved. If the Town decides this isn’t a good change for the Town these buildings are going to get built without the fire pond
Alex Foti asked isn’t it in the best interest of the owner to know that the buildings have adequate fire protection
Andy Smith said it would be nice for every owner in Town to know if there is a fire hydrant that it may work
Cathy Conway said they had 1,000 g/p/m for fire flow. The buildings are more than 30’ apart and that meets the State Fire Code. The Fire Chief has asked for 1,200 g/p/m so they were lacking but according to the State code you need that kind of flow when the buildings are only 10’ apart. To say they have no fire protection in Cathy Conway’s opinion was not accurate. Did they have what the Fire Chief asked no; they have 1,000 g/p/m vs. 1,200 g/p/m
Alex Foti asked Fire Chief Duncan to clarify his position
Fire Chief Duncan said Cathy Conway has not said anything that seemed inaccurate to that point
Alex Foti asked if that was the case why are we requesting more than the State Code
Fire Chief Duncan said because the amount of water they would need to put out a fire based on what was built into those buildings requires more than 1,000 g/p/m. Those are duplex units they would have to fight, and they don’t have fire protection and they don’t have fire sprinklers

Tavis Austin asked why Chief Duncan didn’t think there was fire separation
Fire Chief Duncan said he didn’t know that the buildings have a wall going to the roof
Cathy Conway said they do have a fire wall going to the roof
Fire Chief Duncan said his understanding when these were approved, and he wasn’t sure about Phase I but for Phase II it didn’t have water approved until after the fire pond was required. Fire Chief Duncan’s understanding was that was the approval for Phase I as well
Tavis Austin said he did not recall seeing a requirement for a fire pond in Phase I
Fire Chief Duncan said he didn’t remember seeing water approval for Phase I; he didn’t know that they had come to the Town requesting water until Phase II and that is what has the water issues
Attorney Andy Sullivan said if he was hearing it correctly, this meets written criteria but not the Fire Chiefs
Fire Chief Duncan said he wasn’t sure what criteria
Attorney Andy Sullivan said in terms of the State code. Cathy Conway said it met State Fire Code
Fire Chief Duncan said he was not positive about what Cathy Conway said. Fire Chief Duncan wasn’t sure why it was written as 1,000 g/p/m because the amount of water that will be needed to put out a fire is far more than 1,000 g/p/m. You Can’t put the fire out with only 1,000 g/p/m
Attorney Andy Sullivan said all the Town could do or the developers could do is base their projections on budget and planning on how to ascertain on existing State Codes and requirements not what may be the most optimal
Fire Chief Duncan said it’s not what is optimal it was what he actually needed to fight a fire
Attorney Andy Sullivan gave the example of, if someone asked you what you can build in a zone and you say no because you don’t like it; you can’t operate like that, there is no due process
Tavis Austin asked if there was a reason they were not just putting the fire pond in
Attorney Andy Sullivan said to do that you have to build the road and that would be asking for the whole development to be built, and it didn’t work that way
Fire Chief Duncan asked when he gets condo approval from the State, doesn’t it require that the fire protection be built
Attorney Andy Sullivan said no and that was why they were doing it in Phases with convertible land. The only thing that must be set up is the units that are being submitted, which is the first 9 units up front. When they go into the next phase, they will have to show the units for that one and so on and so forth. The only thing the AG is going to look at is what’s being submitted and they were only submitting the first 9 units which were already approved without the fire pond
Fire Chief Duncan said he was not with the Town when these were approved
Attorney Andy Sullivan said he understood but to put in a fire pond you’re forcing a road to be built; it can’t be done that’s why they are doing it in phases so we can sell some to get some money and keep pushing along. That fire pond will be built, it’s on the plan and the AG will see the plan. It doesn’t have to be built now. If it has to be built now, you’re blowing the whole project and we will have to go back to duplexes
Tom Parks said at the last meeting I asked the question if the whole road will be built in its entirety if this were to be converted to condominiums and the answer was yes
Attorney Andy Sullivan said ultimately yes it will
Tom Parks said so, you’re saying to put in the fire pond you will have to build the whole road, but you already said you’re going to build the whole road
Attorney Andy Sullivan said ultimately, we are; it’s being done in phases
Tom Parks said I don’t know about ultimately but if you don’t build the whole road how is a fire truck going to get to the fire pond or turn around
Tavis Austin said that what he heard this evening was the original 9 buildings (Phase I) would not be able to build the 4th unit until the fire pond was installed. The fire pond was not required for the first 9 units. I’m not sure how the Town has the leverage to require a new fire pond for something that was already approved and recorded
Alex Foti said the Board is not looking at Phase I, Phase I exists. The Board is looking at Phase II and trying to understand how Phase II is going to work with a much larger project than what was originally presented.
Attorney Andy Sullivan said that the Board was contemplating a restriction on Phase I in order to address Phase II issues
Alex Foti said in order to address an issue that has been identified since Phase I approval
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they were not building down there yet; they are not building Phase II and they wouldn’t be doing Phase II until most of these current units are sold; its pure economics. We’re talking about something that the natural flow of this convertible phased development addresses, just economically addresses.
Tavis Austin said when Phase II is converted the road will go in, in its entirety at once
Fire Chief Duncan said it was required that the fire pond be built prior to any construction on Phase II
Tavis Austin said that’s literally what I just said
Andy Smith said there is no argument that is Phase II is converted, if and when it may be never the road will get built and the fire pond will be built before you issue any building permits the fire pond will be there
Bryan Mycko said in his opinion this was a brand-new application so we would go based off the information you have now. You’re talking about not building the second phase so now the Town is literally left out to dry if there is a fire at those condos that we can’t put out because we don’t have the water supply because they don’t feel like putting a pond in
Attorney Andy Sullivan said we are talking about building it in phases
Brian Mycko asked what would happen if the economy down turns
Attorney Andy Sullivan said there would probably be a hiatus. He said he would be upfront and that the land was withdrawable land which means if the economy totally tanks maybe they would go back to the Board and they become single family houses. It’s all based off of the economy and right now if this doesn’t fly then they would build out was already approved. He wasn’t using it as a threat but to let the Board know they have options
Alex Foti said first and foremost a collaborative approach always works best. They absolutely have the right to go ahead and continue what you wanted to in Phase I. Per our regulations you should finish Phase I before you come for Phase II approval. You are asking us to make an exception to approve Phase II while Phase I is still being built. The board is willing to contemplate that, but we also know since the approval of Phase I they have identified a new issue in the Town which is the water supply. We as a board need to consider the water supply when we review Phase II. You are welcome to not present Phase II as an application and keep doing what you are doing but if you want us to review Phase II moving forward the Town has to account for that because our job is to protect the safety of this Town, all of its residents, all of the first responders and therefore we are now aware of this issue. That is why we have Kevin Leonard and the Fire Chief here
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the limitation by addressing Phase II retroactively put a limitation on Phase I
Cathy Conway asked if there was a moratorium on building. If somebody goes and builds a single-family home and they have 1,000 g/p/m they’re not meeting the requirements. Cathy Conway was not seeing where the Town has put a moratorium on that. Cathy Conway said she was just curious why this project was getting singled out
Tavis Austin said he would venture to say because this project is significantly bigger
Cathy Conway said she agreed but the reason they were building the fire pond was because 1,000 g/p/m isn’t enough for (1) home
Tom Parks said for (1) house that’s 5,000 square feet total
Fire Chief Jeff Duncan said that moratorium has been addressed with the Selectboard
Cathy Conway said when somethings in discussion; Cathy Conway was just bringing it up because as a community they need to treat everyone equally so if this house is required to have 1,200 g/p/m why aren’t other houses required to have 1,200 g/p/m
Fire Chief Jeff Duncan said by doing that they were eliminating the ability of the Town to provide water to 27 other homes
Cathy Conway said we are only talking about 9 homes right now
Attorney Andy Sullivan clarified it was 9 buildings
Fire Chief Jeff Duncan said if you are using the water to those homes the water isn’t available to 27 other homes
Cathy Conway said we are talking about fire flow not domestic flow which is when pressure issues happen and it drops below 20 and then you’re drawing from other places not ordinary use
Fire Chief Duncan said the more you draw off ordinary use the more the 1,000 g/p/m is going to drop
Cathy Conway said she had not looked at the hydraulic model so she could not address that because she was not sure how storage fits into all of that
Alex Foti said in the spirit of moving forward as they want to keep building and the Town wants to make sure that there is appropriate fire protection, we have Kevin Leonard here. Alex Fotis question to Kevin Leonard is, is there a way to provide adequate fire protection and satisfy the Fire Chiefs conditions while keeping this project moving and ensuring adequate water supply.
Cathy Conway said she thought they had a difference of opinion on that. From State regulations of 1,000 g/p/m for buildings that are more than 30’ apart
Attorney Andy Sullivan with respect to the Fire Chief but everybody always wants something better than the minimum. All we can go on is the minimum projection with buildings and budgeting. To have to do more every time we come in is up for grabs. All due respect but Attorney Andy Sullivan's opinion is the decision was being made based off information the Town had and nobody else had
Fire Chief Jeff Duncan said he had provided to Cathy Conway what each appliance draws and what he is telling them is, if there is a fire there, he cannot provide a ladder truck because a ladder truck uses more than 1,000 g/p/m. His hands are being tied on how he can fight a fire. He can only use (1) ground motor and (2) hand ones which only use 1,000 g/p/m. If you have a fire, I can’t put it out with that, that will not fight a fire
Attorney Andy Sullivan said that the State allows that
Fire Chief Duncan said he would have to go back and review the State requirements again
Evan Karpf asked if the board can impose more restrictive regulations, rules, or conditions
Rena Vecchio said they could
Evan Karpf said that as an abutter his biggest fear on his property is a fire. He wasn’t sure if this was applicable as they were talking about buildings, but he asked if they had thought about the land catching fire and that moving and transcending
Cathy Conway said that is why when buildings are within 10’ of each other the 1,000 g/p/m goes up
Evan Karpf said that was the buildings but he wanted to address the impact of the fires of surrounding land and trees. There are a lot of dense trees there and he was right next door and his personal fear is a fire. He does not allow any type of fire on his property
Rena Vecchio said the State can say they require a certain amount which she did not know what was, but that the Town can ask for more and that was all they were doing was asking for more because they have the right to protect the Town, the property and the people
Tavis Austin said that Towns can adopt regulations that are more restrictive than the State but he didn’t think the statutes said they could just arbitrarily ask for more than the State without the regulations changing. If the State says all single-family homes have to be 10’ apart the Town can say they have to be 30’ apart but it’s got to be in the regulations; you can’t just decide at a Planning Board meeting the buildings need to be 30’ apart
Alex Foti said the Town regulations say all plans have to have Fire Chief approval. If he didn’t get Fire Chief approval he is stuck. Alex Foti said he is trying to mediate to try to keep both parties happy.
Tavis Austin said he was going back to the simple statement made about the 4th building. Forget tonight; what he heard was the Town may take the position that they cannot build the 4th structure without the fire pond being installed
Kevin Leonard said he thought Tavis Austin was misconstruing a couple things. The way Kevin Leonard understood the letter and he has not spoken to the Fire Chief directly but he did see correspondence and acknowledges that in Phase I we did not have the data we have now and it was approved. We moved onto Phase II and the data study was completed and a problem was identified. Now we have got to work toward a fire pond solution and the condition that no structures can start being built until the fire pond is built. Had the Town known the information prior to Phase II they would have required it for Phase I. The Fire Chief in writing has said if we are revisiting this as a condominium with a new application this is now a safety issue that we know about and should consider accommodating the fire pond for the next structure.
Fire Chief Duncan said based on what Kevin Leonard said he was fairly accurate. The Fire Chief’s position is if they are going to build it in phases as it was laid out to the Town; exactly what was set up is how it needs to be built. Phase I should be completed before they start Phase II. If they are discussing making this one subdivision and condominium that would make it in his mind (1) project and the fire pond should be in.
Attorney Andy Sullivan said because it is in phases we can build but we can’t sell or market them until they are registered with the AG which also facilitates FHA financing. The only thing that is going to be marketed so that people could buy them would be if they are AG registered. The only thing that is going to happen now is the 9 buildings. It may be some time before they get to the rest of them. Attorney Andy Sullivan then asked if it was all (1) condominium but it’s not ready to be built or ready to go to the AG until more work is done, could they get approval just for the (9) buildings/18 units without the fire pond because that wasn’t going to be able to be built. When they get to the next phase which could be (1) building or the rest of the whole project then they could address the need of the fire pond. The road is more or less built for this phase and they can’t get to the fire pond until the rest of the road is built. Tonight, they are just looking for the concept that if it’s going to be a condition then all they can do is build the first (9) buildings.
Cathy Conway mentioned she didn’t think the convertible land was on the plan and they had not talked about it and Cathy Conway thought that may be some of the confusion.
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they had (9) buildings they were submitting to sell for now. The fire pond would have to be addressed if they were going to address the remaining buildings to be built and they were not ready for that yet. It would be self-policing if the Town threw a condition on them before they can build and of the other lots that the fire pond needs to be in; they will go back to duplexes.
Fire Chief Duncan asked for clarification on what Attorney Andy Sullivan had said. Once they start the 10th building the fire pond would be built
Cathy Conway said yes
Rena Vecchio asked what would happen if they put these (9) homes / 18 units in and then the economy goes down, what would happen to the fire pond then
Alex Foti said at that point it would stay as is and the fire pond would not go in
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the trigger for the fire pond would be building more than the (9) buildings and the economy would dictate that.
Fire Chief Duncan said he was not comfortable with that but wasn’t sure if there was a way to address something that had already been approved
Rena Vecchio said this had not been approved as it was a new application
Fire Chief Duncan said Phase I was approved
Rena Vecchio agreed to that but said this application in front of them was a new one
Tavis Austin said it is a new application. If the Board were to put a condition on it the owner may decide not to move forward
Attorney Andy Sullivan said to convert the land you have to do it within (5) years but you could extend it and make a 10-year window to convert. To withdraw the land there is a 7-year window and if you do not withdraw it within that 7 years you can’t. If a condominium phase is not converted within that 10-year window it will revert back to common land and would not be built unless all of the unit owners vote to amend it back to condominiums.
Alex Foti said he wanted to be conscience of the time as they had a hard stop at 6:30pm.
Evan Karpf said there was a little bit of confusion. Were they looking to approve a condominium which involves the entire lot with the elimination of all the existing lot lines of the prior subdivision or are they approving the subdivision with the lot lines present.
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they were there for a condominium and it’s still only (1) lot
Evan Karpf asked if this was a new site plan review with a new application for a condominium complex for the entire lot, and how many acres is it
Attorney Andy Sullivan said it was 54 units / 27 buildings. All they were addressing tonight was the first 9 buildings and now the fire pond because it was an issue
Kevin Leonard said he was a little confused and wanted some clarity. They said (1) lot but there are (10) lots existing because a subdivision does exist
Attorney Andy Sullivan agreed
Kevin Leonard said so there is (10) lots but you keep saying (1) lot
Tavis Austin said that it was all under (1) ownership and that was why they keep saying (1) lot
Kevin Leonard said that was what he was looking to clarify; are they consolidating these all back to (1) lot
Attorney Andy Sullivan said yes
Kevin Leonard said part of the subdivision which created the condominiums is a consolidation and a subdivision which he didn’t think the application clearly portrays. His second question was if these were lots or not
Attorney Andy Sullivan said each area has limited common area. The former lot lines now delineate the common areas
Alex Foti said the existing lots will be converted to limited common area as well
Attorney Andy Sullivan said everything was limited common area; particular to a particular building or unit
Tavis Austin said that was why they were there for a condo & site plan. It was all premised on the site plan which was original Phase I
Alex Foti said that procedurally they also have to go back because to convert this to a condominium it needs to go back to being a single lot so they would need to do a voluntary lot merger which was very easy to do
Evan Karpf brought up a point of consideration. Based upon the Condominium Act of New Hampshire, if you approve this would it take away and rights, decisions, or positions the Board can make on the second phase. Once this was approved it would be for the entire lot and the State has a very specific definition and a series of roles and regulations. Would the board be losing any control of Phase II if this was approved
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the Board had the right to impose conditions. It could be a condition that it has to be a single-family home or you have to put drainage in over here. They now have an easement so they will not need to build the drainage until a later date
Evan Karpf said he wasn’t speaking with knowledge but wanted to know if they could in the future add more buildings to the lot and fill it up
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the condominium will be built if it is approved
Evan Karpf asked about future additional buildings
Attorney Andy Sullivan said that in the condo documents he did not contemplate and additional land to be added
Evan Karpf said he was not talking about the land but the structures. Could you fill in the space with additional condominiums
Attorney Sullivan said no because it was not on the site plan. They could not add additional land unless the Town and the AG approved it
Tavis Austin said the application to the town is for the site plan and would look like what was already approved
Evan Karpf clarified again he wasn’t talking about land but about more structures
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they could not add more structures
Kevin Leonard said he had a question because he didn’t see anything on the plan referring to limited common area and the plans would usually show that and he didn’t think this plan did
Attorney Andy Sullivan said that was because it was the Site Plan
Tavis Austin said the only thing the people will actually own is the siding to the 2x4’s
Kevin Leonard asked about the deck, the porch, the parking spot
Attorney Andy Sullivan said it was all in the declaration. That defines limited common area and what’s associated with each unit. LCA on the drawing or in the documents stands for limited common area
Alex Foti said he wanted to craft a path forward. It was clear that the board was looking at this as a new application and we need to make sure we have Fire Chief approval. We could approve it with the condition of Fire Chief approval but that doesn’t address the issues so we need to iron it out
Tavis Austin said a way to move forward might be to consider a motion to approve the 10 lots that were shown on the submitted condo plan as convertible land (Phase I) then in Phase II no development shall appear prior to the establishment of the fire pond and with Fire Chief approval
Kevin Leonard said he was just throwing some ideas out but the fire pond could be moved. They already had to rebuild some current ponds so they could potentially move it
Cathy Conway said they could but with how long it has taken them to get their AOT approval and all of their approvals with drainage, if they change one of the front ponds to a fire pond, she would have to go back to AOT
Kevin Leonard said it would just need to be as an amendment. Attorney Andy Smith already said he can’t sell a unit for at least 6 months because it has to go through the A/G so Kevin Leonard didn’t see it as a reason to not contemplate it
Attorney Andy Sullivan said this has been lengthy and killing everyone with their time and Rolaids. He didn’t know why this was the epitome of what’s good and what’s wrong when everything looks good to virtually a lot of people. He understands what the Town was saying but said he would fight it and not as a threat but when is enough, enough
Kevin Leonard said he was trying to figure out a way to accommodate both sides
Attorney Andy Sullivan said he wanted to say subject to the Chiefs approval, that would be superseding the Boards authority. That fire pond will be built before they pull building permits
Andy Smith asked Fire chief Duncan if he would be happy with that condition
Fire Chief Duncan said he wasn’t comfortable making a decision that night
Jules Marquis asked if they got permission to do (5) of the buildings and for any more buildings they would need to finish the road and add the fire pond so they can finish the 1st lot. That way once the 1st section is done, if they decide to not build anything else for the next 5 years, they wouldn’t be leaving the first group of people high and dry and unprotected. That will give them the opportunity to sell a few and get some cash flow
Attorney Andy Sullivan said Syed was in to this for 5 million dollars already. He needs to sell more than 4-5 buildings; he needs to sell 9
Jules Marquis asked if that was to put the fire pond in
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the fire ponds cost about $70,000 - $80,000 per pond
Cathy Conway said they may even cost more than that. It’s a pretty significant pond with a dry hydrant plus the road to get to it
Alex Foti said it seems that we need to get to a point where there is a consensus between the economic needs, financial needs and the Fire Chief needs. The Board has a condition in their regulations that the Fire Chief needs to approve it. Even if the Board approved it and the Fire Chief doesn’t, they can’t build.
Jules Marquis told them they did not have much road to finish to get to where the fire pond is going
Alex Foti said he would recommend that they re-group and take the next (4) weeks to figure out how they can address and come to an agreement with Chief Duncan a plan that he can get behind. Maybe its build fewer homes in more phases and put a fire pond in somewhere, maybe it is to move the fire pond location, maybe there is something else that can be worked out that Alex was not aware of as he is not a fire suppression expert
Jules Marquis said he would hate to see 5 or 6 buildings put up and those buildings not to have a fire pond for 5-6 years down the road
Rena Vecchio agreed with Jules Marquis
Jules Marquis said he thought if they were willing to put that little stretch of road in and the fire pond in after maybe 6 houses. He wasn’t sure what they wanted to do but before they can finish that first section put the fire pond in so that way if you get done with the first section and want to wait 4-5 years to build, they have got the fire pond
Andy Smith asked the Board to clarify one point for him. If this does not fly for economic or other reasons the approved plan with the existing buildings could be condo’ d out individually without coming back to the Board. Th end result could be all of them without the fire pond
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the whole site to be (1) condominium adds more security because now it’s not the HOA that everyone ignores it’s a condo association and they can impose fees and people tend to listen to the condo association and not the HOA
Cathy Conway said she was just trying to figure it out. Are we talking about the possibility up to (5) buildings or is it (4)? What is the number the Town will give them
Alex Foti said that’s what he was asking the engineers. Can they work out something that is reasonable
Jules Marquis said they had (9) buildings in the 1st section. How many do you actually have to have before the fire pond is required. Jukes marquis wants a fire pond in before they have the possibility to say they are going to wait 5 years to do the second half.
Attorney Andy Sullivan says that was what the statute allows but not what they anticipate. It could be (2) 5-year increments
Jules Marquis said it could be longer
Attorney Andy Sullivan said it could be but they could also bail on the deal, who knows
Jules Marquis said that I wouldn’t be a big deal then
Attorney Andy Sullivan said it was a big deal
Jules Marquis said why not say (6) buildings and we will put in the fire pond and then we can finish the section and move on
Cathy Conway asked if the proposal was 6 buildings before, we required a fire pond
Alex Foti said that it was going to be a little bit of a give and take between them and Chief Duncan of what he is comfortable with and what you can do financially
Jules Marquis asked Chief Duncan what he thought about that proposal
Fire Chief Duncan said he wasn’t going to give an answer tonight
Alex Foti said he believed the next step would to be to go back and have the discussion. There may be some back and forth. The Board is not in the position to tell you what is needed for fire suppression but you guys can work out a solution that would allow this to proceed in the appropriate stages
Cathy Conway said there were (2) potential solutions.
1.) Limit the number of buildings before the fire pond is put in
2.) Put in a second fire pond
Alex Foti said they could move the existing pond
Kevin Leonard asked what the 2nd option was again
Cathy Conway said to put in a second fire pond
Kevin Leonard said they didn’t have to put in a second fire pond they could move the first one
Cathy Conway said things were so tight in that area she wasn’t sure they could move it
Tom Parks said you keep saying that Phase I is approved. So, because Phase I is approved you can build the (9) houses without the fire pond. When Phase II came up, did that not encompass Phase I? Phase II became approved so now it would just be (1)
Alex Foti said they were separate applications
Tavis Austin said the 1st (9) are on a mylar and that has been recorded. Moving forward with conditions of approval. The conditions are still being worked through before they can be recorded
Kevin Leonard said what was so confusing is when Phase II was approved it required changes to Phase I. There were road width changes because of traffic and AOT changes but the Board approved the revision to Phase I and then approved Phase II so they are technically independent projects.
Andy Smith said they were running concurrently
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they were running concurrently but are different projects
Cathy Conway said Phase II can’t start until Phase I was complete
Alex Foti agreed that was one of the challenges
Evan Karpf said the bigger thing was the loss of life was more important than loss of finances. The loss of his home and his property is more important that the loss of finances. Evan Karpf also wanted to address the condition of an 8’ chain link fence with signage to protect people
Alex Foti said that was already included in the original approval and they will make sure that is completed
Attorney Andy Sullivan said the Fire Chief is not ready to make any decisions tonight and for the board that is a big condition. They are reluctant to have anything approved on the condition that we are waiting on someone to make a well thought out suggestion, that’s like writing a blank check.
Alex Foti said we can continue the application and what he would like to see at the next meeting in February is for everyone to come to a solution that addresses fire suppression so we can move forward
Attorney Andy Sullivan said he could also modify the original section of the declaration and make it more accountable
Tavis Austin said procedurally he did not have an issue with the Board continuing the application but he thinks the goal would be to re-notice people even though it is a continuation so they could add things to the file for the new application
Kevin Leonard said he just wanted to point out there was a separate application that we they didn’t get to and asked if it was really a hard stop at 6:30pm
Alex Foti said yes because there was a zoning board meeting at 6:30pm
Cathy Conway asked the Board if they had any other concerns because it would have been nice to know about the fire pond before she walked in and she could have looked at some potential solutions. So, if there were any other concerns in the back of anyone’s mind, she wanted to know so she had time to address them
Alex Foti said the only other thing he was aware of was an issue with the neighbor and the culvert
Kevin Leonard said that issue has been resolved
Alex Foti asked Kevin Leonard if there were any other big picture items that were worth addressing
Kevin Leonard said he was in favor of talking about the next application so they are not having the same conversation next month
Tom Parks said he just wants them to follow criteria; one of them being slope stabilization on the property which he believes to be seeding
Cathy Conway said they were looking to start up some additional construction now but all of the ditches and what not were part of the November 2023 conversation do have grass growing on them and they are stabilized. One of her questions to the Board was one of the conditions of approval was they could have everything the Certificate of Occupancy requires that everything be completed and they allowed them to wait until spring to do seeding so her question is with the ponds they are constructing in Phase I carry over to the ponds and be seeded in the spring.
Alex Said the Board could vote on that
Kevin Leonard said he believed Cathy Conway meets the AOT that you can’t leave them bare and they have stabilized them
Cathy Conway said the winter stabilization is good. They had a long conversation about grass
Evan Karpf asked if the roads would be maintained for fire truck access. He had noticed the last few storms it was not plowed
Attorney Andy Sullivan said they would plow the roads
Alex Foti said he did feel like they were making progress and he hoped for a better solution at the next meeting
The Board had no other or new business
Jules Marquis made a motion to adjourn and Don Jones seconded the motion. Meeting was adjourned at 6:29pm